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#7333 - 11/30/09 04:42 PM Re: Limit the number of bowlers at school... [Re: VUbowl]
fishe0711 Offline
forum member


Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 43
Loc: Saginaw, Michigan
I see what you are saying about changing the roster for each semester however who in there right mind would do that. I know that i would not want to waste a whole year of eligibility on only being able to bowl 1 semester. we are college students we live in the now not making the top 28 is just the same as being cut in our minds.

ryan i couldn't agree with u more almost every year at sag we have 1 or 2 bowlers emerge from one of the bottom teams up to the A or B team.
_________________________
Bobby "Aquaman" Fisher
S V S U

"second place is just the first loser"

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#7334 - 11/30/09 04:45 PM Re: Limit the number of bowlers at school... [Re: town]
town Offline
forum member


Registered: 12/10/06
Posts: 69
Gary,

sorry had one more thing to say and I dont feel like doing an edit so Ill just post again.

You mentioned that according to this new rule we still would of been able to put Brad in second semester...but my thing is how would we of been able to trust him enough to put him on the roster and take away someone elses hard earned spot, if he didnt have the tournaments first semester that he bowled on lower teams under his belt. Brad proved himself and showed us he should be on the A team THROUGH the current system of bowling on the lower teams when the tournament allows us to take larger amounts of bowlers.

It would of been very hard to take someones hard earned spot away for a bowler with zero tournament experience in my opinion.
_________________________
council
LU 05-09

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#7335 - 11/30/09 05:50 PM Re: Limit the number of bowlers at school... [Re: town]
Captain Obvious Offline
forum member


Registered: 12/09/08
Posts: 68
With the roster limitations in place, whats to say the kid may not have went someplace else for school anyway?

The bottom line is that its not often (but obviously not impossible) that a kid that is outside of the 3-team roster will work his way up the ladder and make a difference on the first team.

In the limited roster system, it seems that most bowlers would end up like other sports' scholarship players, where they would basically have the roster spot promised to them before they got there, rather than having all players receive scholarships and have them try out.

You may still have tryouts for portions of the team, but in al likelihood your best players will have their spots promised to them before arriving.

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#7336 - 11/30/09 06:07 PM Re: Limit the number of bowlers at school... [Re: Captain Obvious]
town Offline
forum member


Registered: 12/10/06
Posts: 69
I want to address what captain obvious. Not to attack his views but to maybe clear some things up where i think his views are different than my own.


You mentioned that with the rosters limits in place, maybe a kid like brad would of gone to somewhere else? Maybe he came to LU cause he knew he would get good coaching and good opportunities from the program, not because he thought he would start on the A team straight out of the gates.

You mentioned that it doesnt happen ofter that someone comes from that deep in the roster to making the A team...I will say that it has happened plenty of times here at LU and as Bobby said it has happened at Sag as well. Hard work and gained experience from these smaller tournaments DO PAY OFF...take those smaller tournaments away from the lower teams and they will have nothing to look forward to through out that season when it comes to bowling.

I cant vouche for other schools, but being in the LU program for 4 years and now helping out Randy this year as an assistant coach...I can promise you that NO ONE has ever been promised a spot on the A-B team before they have got here...all they have been promised is a shot. The people that are on those teams are there because they have earned them through hard work and dedication to the program.


Ryan


Edited by town (11/30/09 06:09 PM)
Edit Reason: i cant spell
_________________________
council
LU 05-09

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#7337 - 11/30/09 07:37 PM Re: Limit the number of bowlers at school... [Re: town]
RIT_Kerp Offline
forum member


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 160
Loc: Rochester, NY
The issue of having a mid-season roster change is an interesting one, yet I find it to be one that although unfortunate, would just be at the mercy of the rules.

It is the same scenario as some bowler transferring into your school after an eligibility period, or after the sanctioning window. This bowler could be amazing, but the rules are the rules, he wouldnt be able to compete for that year.

Brett - excellent point. I hope you know I was in no way trying to discredit any of the top schools talent level or coaching core. I have the utmost respect for your school, its bowlers, and your coaches.

I would like to suggest that possibly the ACTIVE roster should be X number of bowlers at any given time. I like the ability to register multiple teams, but only one team having the ability to cash and that team be designated prior. This would urge all schools to represent themselves with their "best" teams and also give other bowlers a chance to prove themselves.

Also, I would suggest that tournament set two deadlines for reserving teams - Date A for registered "cashable" teams, and then Date B for all other B/C/D teams. Allow as many teams to get in to fill up the tournament, and then once the first date passes, allow the secondary teams a chance to be entered.

Final suggestion would be to propose to the USBC to have the ability to activate and deactivate sanctioning to bowl in a college tournament. This would allow a roster with X number of active collegiate bowlers to be available at any time, and then allow people to be shuffled, moved from active to deactive, or vice versa. Sort of how they do it in baseball with the 25 man roster, moving people up and down "from the minors".

This is a great discussion, please continue the thought provoking comments and absolutely respectful posts. Excellent =)
_________________________
Josh Kierpiec
Rochester Inst. of Tech.

Trading A's for Strikes since 2006.

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#7338 - 11/30/09 08:08 PM Re: Limit the number of bowlers at school... [Re: RIT_Kerp]
uffleshuffle Offline
forum member


Registered: 12/19/06
Posts: 326
Loc: Iowa
A roster of 28 on each side would allow 4 teams of 7 to compete from each side (unless the other proposed limitation of 3 teams per event is enforced.) Where I can definitely see the potential for an individual to prove his or herself and move up from the D team, anything further than that seems either ludicrous or that maybe there was a mistake in evaluating that player's potential.
Team rosters of 7 are perfect in my opinion, because there are subs available, and not too many that people are sitting all day. That is just my personal preference.
And if you are worried about losing people to grades or credit eligibility and dropping below 28, I don't think an adjustment to the proposed rule is in order, I think that is a matter of holding people accountable for their actions.

Christopher P. Uffman
_________________________
Christopher P. Uffman
Assistant Coach
Midland University
Fremont, NE

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#7339 - 11/30/09 08:28 PM Re: Limit the number of bowlers at school... [Re: RIT_Kerp]
VUbowl Offline
forum member


Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 74
Josh,
That is quite an interesting suggestion about having the ability to change the "active" 28 within any given semester. Not sure how the logistics of something like that would work out, but it is definitely a potential way of satisfying both "groups" so to speak. There would still have to be some type of restrictions in place for the frequency of change to prevent the possibility of activating/deactivating back and forth through the semester which in essence would make the rule void.

There already has been some discussion about putting in a rule for Tier 2 events similar to what we have now for Tier 1's. Meaning that there would be a deadline date to be able to enter X number of teams, whether its 1, 2, 3 or whatever and then after that, if the tournament has room, fill up remaining spots with extra teams. An extra amendment to that could easily be that the number of teams "cashing" be limited in Tier 2's just as they are in Tier 1's. This is somewhat a different topic than what we have been discussing but does have its similarities.

Ryan,
I fully understand the situation you describe, only adding that a situation like that is likely to be the exception rather than the standard. Meaning that I could very likely see players advancing from a 3rd, 4th, or maybe even a 5th team but in all honesty, I would find it highly unlikely that a player below that is going to advance to an A or B team in a semester very often, again the exception. In which case, I would offer that ANY rule, not withstanding the one we are discussing, cant be tailored to that type of situation.

The point about utilizing tournament competition to determine which team any given player might be on really is an individual choice by the program. Meaning that all of the programs use many different methods to determine who bowls on what team and where, etc. and that choice is specific to the school/coach so that tailoring a rule to an option like that could be done 20 different ways to accomodate all the different methods, which obviously would make any rule useless.

Bobby,
Your responses make it seem that Saginaw would be affected immediately by a rule like this and I was under the impression that currently your team's roster did not exceed the proposed limit of 28. Is that actually true or do you guys have more than that on your current roster? I really dont remember Saginaw fielding more than 5 teams at a tournament hardly ever, let alone a common happening. The point being that the proposed change would probably not affect, at the most very little, your program as it is now.

The last point I will restate has to do with the aspect of looking past our own specific programs and how any particular rule might affect it, and look to see what is in the best interests of all the programs. Specifically, if a rule, any rule, is deemed to be something that will enhance college bowling overall for all of the programs, but have a detrimental affect for a few (not that I necessarily think this one would), its still better to implement the rule for the whole.

Gary Sparks
Vincennes University
NCBCA Vice President

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#7340 - 11/30/09 09:21 PM Re: Limit the number of bowlers at school... [Re: VUbowl]
fishe0711 Offline
forum member


Registered: 03/30/08
Posts: 43
Loc: Saginaw, Michigan
we have fielded at least 5 at all of conference tourneys with 6 at one or two. we started the year out of tryouts with almost 40. that number has dropped and is now down to 32 i believe. and we have 1 maybe 2 recruits joining the team at the semester.

and as for the idea of someone coming from lower than the D team, this year we had a second year player start on the E team after tryouts and moved up and bowled on the A team this past weekend at match game.

And this being my third year i have seen our team grow every year since i ve been here. And to agree with ryan I don't think anyone has been promised a spot on this team other than maybe Dan Mac and Toby Sambueno.
_________________________
Bobby "Aquaman" Fisher
S V S U

"second place is just the first loser"

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#7341 - 11/30/09 09:58 PM Re: Limit the number of bowlers at school... [Re: fishe0711]
VUbowl Offline
forum member


Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 74
Bobby,
Thanks for the update on your team's numbers. That's close to what I had thought, didnt take into account your conference play where I was aware that you typically enter more teams there, really was looking at more of the regular season tournaments.

The situation of the player moving up from the E team very possibly wouldnt be affected by the rule as 28 members would still allow 5 teams for a program. Even with that, I think you would still have to acknowledge that this is definitely not the norm for a player to move up that far in a short period of time.

You also mention that you have a couple of recruits starting the second semester which seems to go against what you said earlier about a player not wanting to sacrifice a year's eligibility for one semester of bowling. I actually think that happens fairly often where teams will add a player or two the second semester, for a variety of reasons, could be academic eligibility, just adding players, etc.

Gary Sparks
Vincennes University
NCBCA Vice President

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#7342 - 11/30/09 10:23 PM Re: Limit the number of bowlers at school... [Re: VUbowl]
RIT_Kerp Offline
forum member


Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 160
Loc: Rochester, NY
All,

Again, I think there is an equal mix of people seeing the point of this rule change, and those missing the point.

This isnt an attack against the larger albeit successful schools, yet it is an attempt to advance the sport of Collegiate Bowling to the next level. There will always be special cases, and it is good to note them - but how big of a population representation are we talking about here? ~2%?

Lets just try to focus on how this will affect our sport utilizing a holistic approach.

How will this affect things in the short term? Long term?

Does it seem likely to limit the growth (not just in numbers, but quality of bowlers, and increase in experience) or enhance it?

Will it grow programs or shrink them?

Will bowlers be encouraged to improve their games and work harder on the lanes and in the classroom? Or will student athletes pack up their balls and notebooks and quit?

These are the types of questions we should be asking, answering, and providing solid rationale to, while keeping in mind outliers yet not basing our cases on them.

Discussion: continue!
_________________________
Josh Kierpiec
Rochester Inst. of Tech.

Trading A's for Strikes since 2006.

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